The Interview - 6. So, you mentioned sex earlier

Chapter six: So, you mentioned sex earlier

'So, you mentioned sex earlier, but it’s a topic of constant contention within the modern day church. Contraception, sex before marriage, sex offenses within the church. Where do you stand on sex and its place within the church?'

God meets my eye evenly for a moment. Do I detect some disappointment there? I can't hold his gaze and so I look away for a moment. When our eyes meet again, any sign of annoyance or disappointment is gone. 'Well, I'd really prefer it didn't take place in the church itself. That would be distracting.'

It takes me a moment to realise he is making a joke, and when I connect the dots I can't help but chuckle. 'Okay, I mean how does sex fit into the institution of religion and church?'

'Sex is enjoyable for a reason, and that is to do with reproduction, survival and intimacy. What you have to understand is that all the rules around sex and the church are man-made rules. Most of them served some purpose at one point or another, and some of those were well justified at the time they were introduced. Take sex outside of marriage. Sex crimes against women have been a constant blight on the history of humanity, and while not absolutely necessary, the family unit tends to work best with two parents. Laws forbidding sex outside of marriage are also logical as a prevention mechanism against the spread of sexually transmitted diseases. Finally, Catholicism was shaped during the time of Roman domination, a society that had become increasingly depraved with sexual excess, among other things. So stricter rules around sex and marriage were introduced to combat all these sorts of problems, which they had some success in doing.'

'So are these rules still relevant in today's society?'

'Essentially no, though it's not necessarily that black or white,' God answered my question, leaning forward on the couch.

'Can you explain that for me?'

'Well, there are other, more effective protections against some of these problems these days. Tougher laws against sex crimes and more effective policing, education on consent, on STDs and different methods of protection and birth management options. The one I do struggle with the most is the break-down of the family unit.’

‘You mean divorce?’ I interjected.

‘Yes,’ God answered, nodding.

‘Many would argue that divorce is a good thing and has enabled women in particular to get out of destructive relationships,’ I point out. A pang of guilt enters my mind as I make the point. Was that what Mel was in? A destructive relationship with me? I don’t have time to dwell on the internal question, as God answers.

‘I agree with that completely and am disappointed that many men and women have not had that option in the past because of the church's strict marriage laws. There is a place for the dissolution of marriage. However, it is concerning how casual marriage has become, and how little effort some make to find a resolution and make things work, particularly when there are children involved. Living with someone else isn't easy, because you get lazy; you need to communicate well and make compromises. With no pressure or expectation to make it work, many marriages breakdown because one or both partners couldn't be bothered trying. When the going gets tough they run away instead of facing their issues. Rather than working on it and growing as a person, they flee and many end up making the same mistakes in subsequent relationships. Any children caught in the cross-fire share in the suffering and are at higher risk in repeating the pattern when they step into adulthood.'

I realise that God has again managed to turn a question that was intended to be cheeky into a serious theological discussion. I find myself getting drawn into it once again, a mini John Holmes appearing on my shoulder like an annoying conscience urging me to ask the question. This time, I concede a little, given we are still talking sex, which is always a controversial and uncomfortable discussion for the church.

'All of these things you have mentioned are highly controversial within churches and go counter to what its leaders preach.' God nods at my statement, conceding the point. 'In particular, you briefly mentioned abortion – how do you feel about that?'

'I can't say I love it, but I think there are times when it is a choice that should be considered. The laws against abortion in the catholic church are as much about the church's drive to populate the world as they are with any moral issues with the act itself. Abortion was considered a threat to this expansion many year before, these days it has become a question of morality around the act.

'However, Earth is now over-populated and with the rate of human growth, human’s will run into increasing issues around pollution, sourcing adequate food, etc. It makes perfect sense to look at ways of reigning in population growth, and abortion certainly falls in that space. There's also the issue of unwanted pregnancies. There are those who fall pregnant that do not want a child, are not mature enough to handle the responsibility, and ultimately, will resent the child and fail them as a parent. Should we force such a person to continue with the pregnancy? That type of treatment can do far more harm than good. So while I would like to see the focus be on trying to avoid getting to that position in the first place, and on ensuring such an act is not entered into lightly, I do not think it should be completely ruled out as an option.'

My brain is struggling to comprehend the apparent paradox between what God is telling me, and what his representatives, the Christian churches, ultimately preach. For me, God's words are proving far more compelling and logical than anything I have ever heard from my own Catholic upbringing. I decide to keep with the topic, to keep the discussion going. Despite myself, an article on the interview is slowly starting to take shape in my mind, and I check my phone to ensure it is still recording.

‘What about gay relationships and gay marriage?’ I ask. ‘Many faiths have cruel rules and practices around the acceptance and treatment of anyone who doesn’t fit the heterosexual norms.’

‘Yes, you have landed on another disappointing example of where the church has moved away from my teachings of acceptance and inclusion. The Christian Bibles allude to it – Jesus breaking conventions by ministering with the lepers, by becoming friends with tax collectors, by treating prostitutes and outcasts as he would any other person. It was all about condemning prejudice and showing we are all human and deserving of respect and equal treatment. It is sad that many churches have moved away from this core teaching, or else have decided to pick and choose which groups should be accepted and which should not. All human societies throughout history have had non-heterosexual relationships, and not all of them have been condemning of them.’

I find myself increasingly impressed with the answers I am getting and decide to keep pushing. 'While on the topic of sex, another issue that has plagued the Catholic Church in particular is the countless claims of child abuse by priests. How do you feel about this?'

'Mostly sadness for the victims and anger towards the perpetrators. Anyone who would commit that type of crime against a child has serious issues.'

'But many would argue it's your rules that drove them to do it. How would you respond to such a claim?'

Beyond God, I notice a dark look on Michael’s face, his fists clenched and knuckles whitening in response to my question. But God is unfazed.

'There are plenty of ways to refute that,' he raises his hand and starts ticking them off on his fingers as he talks. 'Firstly, the rules of the church are not all mine. It was men who decided to put in a no marriage rule for priests, and it is a dumb one. Humans have sexual urges as part of an in-built survival mechanism. They should be taught enough self-restraint to control the urges, but to suppress them completely runs counter to human design. Also, priests are meant to be leaders in the community, providing advice, guidance and support to those around them. I don't see how they can effectively advise their congregation on marriage and relationships when they have no experience on the topic.

'Secondly, there is nowhere in the church that suggests sex with innocent minors is okay, and our earlier discussion on rules around sex show that the church has plenty to say on when and where sex is acceptable.

'Thirdly, no rule, flawed or otherwise, justifies or excuses this type of behaviour. Men are not ruled by their dicks, and those that claim they are need some much more rigorous education in self-control and moral behaviour.'

'So what about masturbation?' I ask. 'Don't you think the Church-imposed guilt on the subject just adds to the problem?'

'Absolutely. It is healthy and natural for people to masturbate. There should be no drama with doing so, unless like anything, it becomes excessive and starts interfering with other aspects of their lives.'

'Based on your answers so far, I'm guessing you are going to agree that sex before marriage is okay?'

The corner's of God's mouth purse briefly before he answers. 'As I stated earlier, I am a fan of marriage. But I can see that the rules of the church need to move with the times. I think sex before marriage is okay, as long as people are educated about it and honest with it. Talking about these things with teenagers and young adults is always the better option than telling them they are not to do it and then ending the conversation.'

'So you're not entirely comfortable with it?'

'Not when it is approached irresponsibly. That's when pregnancy enters the picture, or STDs, or people get hurt.'

'We've come around to the issue of pregnancy again, and you mentioned STDs. The church currently bans contraception, which can guard against one or both of these things. Is this another church rule, rather than one of your rules?'

God thinks about the question for a moment his eyes upward as if searching for the right words. 'If you've read the Old Testament, you would know that I have used a plague or two in my time to teach a lesson or punish those who have erred. The human plague is the most devastating of all, as it impacts the environment and the millions of other species on the planet. I don't think it is responsible in this day and age for families to be having lots of children, particularly in first world countries. Short of avoiding sex entirely, which as we've discussed is not a wise course of action, contraception is a good tool to ensure population growth is moderated. And the added protection against STDs makes it a no-brainer.'

A rattle from the doorway interrupts my next question and I look over to see Raphael enter the room bearing a tray laden with food. My eyes widen at the fare laid out on the tray – beautiful crusty breads, bowls full of freshly cooked salmon and tuna, deliciously fresh looking vegetables, lettuce, cucumber, tomato, avocado, olives and roast capsicum. My stomach, empty since lunchtime the day before, grumbles agreeably at the sight. I look at my phone and see that it is 12:30pm already, even though it feels like we've only been chatting for fifteen or twenty minutes.

'Let's break for lunch,' God suggests, and I nod in accordance.